• May 2, 2016 at 3:38 pm #46856
    Cocaine Eyes
    Participant
    May 3, 2016 at 8:02 am #46878
    andrew t
    Participant

    This won’t be news to the hardcore collectors, but I’ve always liked Mick’s take on a Keith classic:

     

    May 3, 2016 at 8:25 am #46879
    Cocaine Eyes
    Participant

    Oh dear. I still LOVE Keith’s classic. Mick’s take is ……. well, it’s OK. :mrgreen: 

    ~CE

    May 3, 2016 at 9:41 am #46881
    Breath
    Participant

    susan tedeschi’s take ain’t half bad…with hubby Derek on slide…

     

     

    May 3, 2016 at 6:20 pm #46906
    stonehearted
    Participant

    How about Keith’s take on Gimme Shelter?

     

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    May 3, 2016 at 8:11 pm #46909
    Cocaine Eyes
    Participant

    Love it, SH, simply love it!

    ~CE

    May 4, 2016 at 9:08 am #46917
    Doxa
    Participant

    What aboot the version of Keith’s classic by…  hmm… Mick’s classic:

     

     

    • Doxa
    May 4, 2016 at 10:11 am #46919
    Doxa
    Participant

    But of  that original bootleg offered by CE (thank you!)…

     

    It is always a pleasure to listen Pathe Marconi sessions; there is always that special loose feel in them… As a recording, creative band that really was the last great triumph for them.

     

    It sounds like they have two typical gears in their machine at the time.. The first is the ‘experiments’ – or it wasn’t really because it sounded so natural –  with different, usually black music inspired, rhythms (dance, R&B, reggae, funk, etc). In a hindsight I think that might have been the most intresting and memorable thing they were doing at the time, and I think the rhythm section of the band has never sounded so delicious as it did at the time. Just listen, for example, “Keep It Cool” or “Think I’m Going Mad””… I simply love that groove, especially when it is a question of a rather slow tempo.

     

    The other gear is the ‘mindless’ – I guess initially punk-inspired – rockers. things like “Where The Boys Go”,  “Neighbours”, “Summer Romance”… just ‘one, two, three, here we go!” kind of thing… and those also have their charm, because the band mostly sounds so red and hot. And funnily immature.

     

    What is also typical for the era is that ‘good’ melodies and ballads were out or passe (despite Keith in his own having his ‘whisky glass and a cigar’, sentimental night club numbers). That seems to be especially Mick’s thing – is there any other ballad from the era (from him) than odd “Indian Girl”? – all the ‘slow’ things were more like groove numbers, trying different means than ‘pure’ melodies to make the effect, usually emphasizing the percussive aspects (a’la “Heaven”). Altogether, the writing – finishing off the melodies, and other musical structures, lyrics and things like that – was intentionally sloppy or even lazy, more like the musical and melodical ideas were just thrown in, and then just relying on the feel of the band, and playing as long as it takes to get it ‘right’.  This not by any means criticism, since because of that attitude, the Pathe Marconi sessions have a certain, distinguished ‘feel’ in them, thanks to that loose attitude of theirs (which, I think, like with the Big Four sessions, or, say, Aftermath or Satanic Majesties sessions, is a result of place and time, and not cannot be repeated with similar, strong results, when the momentum is gone; not just the times and the circumstances, but the people and their synergia changes). If ever, the sessions could be described as ‘kids, don’t try this at home’…

     

    We could also add the return of c&w influence – being pretty much absent since Exile sessions – even though much of it never made the cut.

     

    Oh yeah, an addition: Bill Wyman captured funnily the tension of Pathe Marconi sessions, particularly Emotional Rescue and Undercover ones (which according to him weren’t mostly happy times at all), that Mick wanted dance, and Keith wanted guitars, and while Mick wanted hits, Keith couldn’t give a s… :mrgreen:

     

    • Doxa
    May 4, 2016 at 3:19 pm #46938
    DandelionPowderman
    Participant

    Heaven stems from the PM sessions (thanks, Skippy).

     

    -------------------------------
    BBB - Bring Blondie Back

    May 4, 2016 at 4:52 pm #46941
    Doxa
    Participant

    Heaven stems from the PM sessions (thanks, Skippy).

     

    Well, if that’s a comment to me, I wasn’t claiming anything else. I might have been unclear, but I tried to say that “Heaven” is a typical PM era Jagger ‘slow song’, more like an exercise on a certain feel, sound and groove, than a properly written melodical ballad he made especially during the mid-70’s (and would do again, as the 80’s developed further).

     

    But do you buy my over-all account of Pathe Marconi era and of its distinctive traits, Dandie? I know that that era is special for you..

     

    • Doxa
    May 5, 2016 at 12:47 pm #46966
    andrew t
    Participant

    But of that original bootleg offered by CE (thank you!)… It is always a pleasure to listen Pathe Marconi sessions; there is always that special loose feel in them… As a recording, creative band that really was the last great triumph for them. It sounds like they have two typical gears in their machine at the time.. The first is the ‘experiments’ – or it wasn’t really because it sounded so natural – with different, usually black music inspired, rhythms (dance, R&B, reggae, funk, etc). In a hindsight I think that might have been the most intresting and memorable thing they were doing at the time, and I think the rhythm section of the band has never sounded so delicious as it did at the time. Just listen, for example, “Keep It Cool” or “Think I’m Going Mad””… I simply love that groove, especially when it is a question of a rather slow tempo. The other gear is the ‘mindless’ – I guess initially punk-inspired – rockers. things like “Where The Boys Go”, “Neighbours”, “Summer Romance”… just ‘one, two, three, here we go!” kind of thing… and those also have their charm, because the band mostly sounds so red and hot. And funnily immature. What is also typical for the era is that ‘good’ melodies and ballads were out or passe (despite Keith in his own having his ‘whisky glass and a cigar’, sentimental night club numbers). That seems to be especially Mick’s thing – is there any other ballad from the era (from him) than odd “Indian Girl”? – all the ‘slow’ things were more like groove numbers, trying different means than ‘pure’ melodies to make the effect, usually emphasizing the percussive aspects (a’la “Heaven”). Altogether, the writing – finishing off the melodies, and other musical structures, lyrics and things like that – was intentionally sloppy or even lazy, more like the musical and melodical ideas were just thrown in, and then just relying on the feel of the band, and playing as long as it takes to get it ‘right’. This not by any means criticism, since because of that attitude, the Pathe Marconi sessions have a certain, distinguished ‘feel’ in them, thanks to that loose attitude of theirs (which, I think, like with the Big Four sessions, or, say, Aftermath or Satanic Majesties sessions, is a result of place and time, and not cannot be repeated with similar, strong results, when the momentum is gone; not just the times and the circumstances, but the people and their synergia changes). If ever, the sessions could be described as ‘kids, don’t try this at home’… We could also add the return of c&w influence – being pretty much absent since Exile sessions – even though much of it never made the cut. Oh yeah, an addition: Bill Wyman captured funnily the tension of Pathe Marconi sessions, particularly Emotional Rescue and Undercover ones (which according to him weren’t mostly happy times at all), that Mick wanted dance, and Keith wanted guitars, and while Mick wanted hits, Keith couldn’t give a s… :mrgreen:

    • Doxa

    Yeah, it’s the last hurrah of the cocaine years. Where endless nights could actually be somewhat productive. The PM sessions come down to editing. The method was to jam endlessly and then pick out the good bits here and there. Do a whole ton of variations on a theme and see which one you like best. As you mention, the rockers are very much in this vein, which led to the stones-by-numbers criticisms. There’s less emphasis on expression, embellishments and really mining the American roots tradition and more on being a good-time band. A party band. And for a while it was the best party around.

    May 5, 2016 at 12:55 pm #46967
    andrew t
    Participant

    Cool 2004 piece from Chris Kimsey. Obstensibly about TY and Start Me Up, but with some interesting detail about Pathe-Marconi:

    Released in August 1981, Tattoo You is widely regarded as the Rolling Stones’ last great album; an ingenious division of rock tracks on one side and ballads on the other captures “the world’s greatest rock & roll band” close to their best. Nevertheless, despite the confident musicianship and apparent consistency of material, the record was actually little more than a compilation of tracks that had been discarded from previous albums, with virtually no new input from the musicians themselves. And it was Chris Kimsey who devised this idea out of necessity.

    Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, you see, were no longer on the best of terms. While the guitarist wanted the band to remain true to its rock and R&B roots, the frontman was more interested in movie acting and following contemporary trends, and the result was that neither fancied spending their nights together in the studio. So when the band’s financial adviser, Prince Rupert Loewenstein, decreed that it was time to deliver a new album, Kimsey came up with the solution.

     

    “Since I’d recorded a number of songs during Some Girls and Emotional Rescue that they’d never used, I assumed there must be other bits and pieces lying around,” he explains. “So, I spent a couple of months going through all their tapes and I found these gems: ‘Waiting On A Friend’ and ‘Tops’ were from the Goat’s Head Soup sessions; ‘Slave’ and ‘Worried About You’ were from Black & Blue; ‘Start Me Up’ was from Some Girls; and ‘Hang Fire’, ‘Little T&A’, ‘Black Limousine’, ‘Neighbors’, ‘Heaven’ and ‘No Use In Crying’ were from Emotional Rescue. I did rough mixes at Olympic of everything I’d found, sent them to the band members, and then began working on the tracks.
    classic tracks kimsey.s

    “Only ‘Waiting On A Friend’ was already complete. The main thing missing from most of them was Sir Mick’s vocal, because he hadn’t finished writing the lyrics, so those parts were recorded in Paris in mid-1981. They’d rented a bloody warehouse on the edge of the Peripherique [ring road] in a horrible part of the city — all industrial sites and train sidings… no restaurants! I don’t know who’d found the warehouse, but it was big and cheap, they put the mobile truck inside there, and it was so cold that, when Mick did the vocals, you could see icy breath coming out of his mouth. I remember that place to this day. It was absolutely diabolical.”
    <p class=”bodytext”>Not that the other band members were too concerned about this. After all, none of them showed up — Keith, who lived in Paris, would only show his face during the New York mix sessions. Instead, Kimsey was pretty much left to his own devices, and, fortunately for his blasé employers, he turned out an album that would top the US charts for nine weeks on the strength of an extensive stadium tour and the smash hit singles ‘Start Me Up’ and ‘Waiting On A Friend’.

    The definitive latter-day Stones rocker, ‘Start Me Up’ is distinguished — like many of the band’s other classic tracks — by an instantly recognisable opening guitar riff. However, it actually started life as a reggae song, committed to tape in March 1975 during the Black & Blue sessions, before being cast aside and re-recorded with a totally different arrangement at EMI’s Pathé Marconi Studios in Paris in January and March 1978.

    “That was another bizarre environment,” Kimsey remarks. “The live area was a huge oblong, but you couldn’t see the left-hand side of it at all from the control room at the far end. What’s more, the walls were decorated with these goddamn awful orange hessian cubes and white pegboard — a classic case of the French going for moderne and getting it horribly wrong. It was awful. The only thing I liked was that, despite the floor being shiny graphite, those orange hessian cubes soaked up any reverb and so the huge room wasn’t at all echoey.

    “There were loads of screens, as well as three or four booths dotted around the place. When party guests turned up, they were put in those booths. Otherwise, they were never used. I set up the band in a semicircle facing the control room, with the drums in the middle, Keith to the left of Charlie from my perspective, Ronnie’s amp next to Keith, and then, to the right of Charlie, Mick’s guitar and Bill on the end. The keyboards were in front of the control room window. Screens were placed behind the band and used as divisions between each amp, so that each of the guys were in their own little booths without anything in front of them. That meant they could actually hear what was coming out of their amps, and I also put up a little Shure PA for them to hear Mick’s vocals as well as Charlie’s snare and kick.

    “There’s quite a characteristic drum sound on Some Girls, and as the guitars were so loud it helped to have Charlie’s snare fill up the room a bit more. I didn’t really want them to use headphones, I wanted to create sort of a live atmosphere, and they went along with that. I remember being terrified the first time Mick and Keith ever came in the control room, because they just stood at the back and whispered. But then they said, ‘Yeah, it sounds great. OK, next.’ That was it. They knew it sounded great.

    “That having been said, God knows how anybody knew it sounded good, because the control room was the weirdest place of all. For one thing, you couldn’t fit more than four people in it. And for another, the wall slanted outwards as it went towards the door, with the desk placed at an angle to the speakers so that the left-hand speaker was closer to you than the right-hand speaker. It looked like a complete shit-hole, yet somehow it sounded amazing. There were these huge great JBLs that could tear your ears off, and it was very rock & roll.”

    Jagger’s background at the London School of Economics was playing its part. “Mick had got that room for, like, 200 quid a day,” Kimsey states, “and after having been there for about three weeks I was really enjoying myself, working with a lovely old 16-track EMI desk and recording to a Studer A80 with Dolby A at 15ips. I’d got used to the sound and was having a great time, at which point Mick said, ‘Er, we’re going to move into the real room.’ I said, ‘What do you mean? What real room?'</p>
    classic Diagram Kimsey

    The layout of Pathé Marconi Studios in Paris for the Some Girls sessions, when ‘Start Me Up’ mutated from a reggae song into a rock & roll number. The PA was a Shure column with a small horn at the top and two bass units below, raised 7 feet into the air.

     

    “Next door, the studio area was just as huge, and the control room had this absolutely enormous Neve — you had about 70 channels in front of you and a whole sidecar to the left of the monitoring that went back another four feet. In fact, the control room was the complete opposite to the one I’d been using. You could put a hundred people in there, but it sounded awful and I hated it. So, I talked to Keith and said, ‘Do we have to move? It sounds so good where we are and the band sounds great.’ Well, given the price, I don’t think it took very much to talk Mick into staying. He kept asking, ‘Does it sound all right in here? Does it sound all right?’ and I’d say, ‘Yeah, it sounds great. We’re getting great results.’ Thank God we stayed there.”

    With the songwriting taking place in the studio, tracks would be worked on for a couple of days, left alone for a while, and then worked on again, sometimes ad nauseam.

    “‘Miss You’ took quite a time to come together,” Kimsey remembers. “Bill needed to go to quite a few clubs before he got that bass line sorted out. But he did sort it out, and bless him, it made that song. Then, immediately after ‘Miss You’ was recorded, ‘Start Me Up’ got straightened out. They’d been throwing it around as a reggae song, but they rearranged it and, within 24 hours of ‘Miss You’, ‘Start Me Up’ was recorded.”

    “After they cut it, I said, ‘That’s bloody great! Come and listen,'” Kimsey recalls. “However, when I played it back, Keith said, ‘Nah, it sounds like something I’ve heard on the radio. Wipe it.’ Of course, I didn’t, but he really didn’t like it, and I’m not sure whether he likes it to this day. I don’t think it’s one of his favourite songs, although it’s obviously everyone’s favourite guitar riff; his guitar riff. Maybe because Keith loves reggae so much, he wanted it to be a reggae song.”

    As part of the aforementioned semicircle facing the control room, Mick Jagger recorded a guide vocal, singing into a Shure SM58 that was going through the PA; Charlie Watts was captured with a single Neumann U47 valve mic above his maple Gretsch kit, a Neumann U67 to the side of his floor tom in order to provide a stereo effect — a technique borrowed from Glyn Johns, who would record the drums with a total of four microphones — a Sennheiser 421 on the top tom, an AKG D25 on the kick (with a Shure SM57 going to the PA), an SM58 on the snare and an AKG 451 on the hi-hat.

    “The PA was aiming at the drums, so the snare would actually come back through the overhead mic and create this quite unique sound,” Kimsey explains.

    While Bill Wyman’s Fender Mustang bass was DI’d and going through an Ampeg Portaflex amp, the Mesa Boogie amps of Keith Richards and Ron Wood were close-miked with valve U47s, and Jagger’s with a U87. Richards alternated between a Gibson Les Paul Junior and his red and cream Fender Telecasters; Wood played a Strat, a Zemaitis, a Fender B-Bender Tele and a pedal steel. “I used the 87 on Mick’s guitar because his sound was always so loud,” says Kimsey. “With Keith and Ronnie it was 47s, padded down and using the desk compression which was amazing.”

    While no keyboards were played on ‘Start Me Up’, the setup for other tracks comprised a couple of AKG 414s on the piano, a DI’d Wurlitzer, and a Hammond miked with a pair of SM58s on top and a U87 below.

    “Including run-throughs, ‘Start Me Up’ took about six hours to record,” says Kimsey. “You see, if they all played the right chords in the right time, went to the chorus at the right time and got to the middle eight together, that was a master.
    classic EMI desk

    The EMI desk used to record ‘Start Me Up’ now resides in the studio of songwriter and producer Terry Britten, who has added the additional sidecar modules.

     

     
    It was like, ‘Oh, wow!’ Don’t forget, they would never sit down and work out a song. They would jam it and the song would evolve out of that. That’s their magic. So, for Charlie it was especially difficult, because he would never know where anything was unless Mick was doing a guide vocal — that’s why I got him to sing through the PA setup. Charlie would follow Mick to determine where the chorus was or whatever, and sometimes Mick would change it, confusing everybody even more. They’d all be on the edge, and that’s why it was so great when they did get it right together.

    “After that, they would leave the song, listen to it over the course of several days, and if they did come back to it they’d generally change it. I mean, Mick would want to come back and do everything faster, but generally they would come back and do something completely different. That was a good lesson: if you’re going to do it different, change the key, change the tempo. What’s the point in redoing it two beats faster?”

    Whatever the point, ‘Start Me Up’ was not revisited once the master take had been achieved, possibly because of Keith’s indifference towards it. Instead, it was left with a fairly raw and basic rock sound.

    Throughout the recording, Charlie kept it very straight ahead and Keith just went for it,” Kimsey recalls. “It was like ‘Oh, I remember this,’ as they played along, and it just stuck together with a lot of space. That’s the song’s magic, really.”

    At the same time, the engineer was having a fine old time, adding reverbs and delays while leaving very little to the mix. “They’d be in the middle of a take, and I’d never know if it was going to be the master, so I’d try all sorts of things,” he says. “As it was quite a discrete desk, I could do that kind of stuff, meaning that I’d be changing sounds during a performance that might turn out to be the master. Still, they always left me to get on with my job and never, ever mentioned anything about the sound.”

    Now fast-forward three years to the vocal sessions in that freezing cold Paris warehouse, and once again Chris Kimsey was left alone… almost totally alone, hanging around for hour after hour, day after day, while Mick Jagger checked out the city’s social scene. Consequently, what could have been achieved in a matter of days ended up taking six weeks.

    “I rented a flat, and I wouldn’t leave that flat until I knew he was on his way, because it was so bloody cold down there,” Kimsey says. “We had to hire industrial heaters to warm the place up before we got there. It didn’t make any sense at all, aside from the fact that Mick loved Paris and their truck was parked there inside a warehouse that cost next to nothing.

    “We put some screens around him, otherwise it would have sounded ridiculous in that giant place, and I recorded all of his vocals with a valve 47. That’s what I always used when he was overdubbing without the band, whereas the Shure SM58 is a lot more direct and therefore ensured far less leakage. If you’re pumping it through a PA and put a 47 through there, you’d start getting feedback and it just wouldn’t work.”

    What did work, when Jagger showed up for a session, was his ability to perform quickly and effectively, completing a song within four or five takes once he’d sorted out the lyrics. In most cases, he already had a verse as well as an idea of the chorus, and he’d repeat the same verse until he came up with more words.

    “He’d give it the full performance, moving all over the place,” Kimsey confirms. “It was great to watch and equally great to record. He knows how to work a microphone. He might be at the back of the control room, just a bar before the verse, and all of a sudden he’s in front of the mic. He backs off in the chorus when he’s singing loud, he gets in close when he’s singing soft, and he knows what to do. Keith, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. You need a shotgun to get him in front of the mic. He’ll wander all over the place while singing, taking an attitude of ‘You do your job, you record me.'”

    This was never an issue on ‘Start Me Up’, which, regardless of the image conveyed in the promotional video, actually features Jagger performing all of the backing vocals as well as the lead. “He’s very good at sounding like Keith on harmonies,” remarks Kimsey.
    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr04/articles/classictracks.htm

    May 5, 2016 at 7:37 pm #46987
    LongBeachArena72
    Participant

    I suppose there are many different possible reasons for why Mick and Keith stopped producing such magnificent work; among them are:

    1. It’s tough to be a great pop songwriter for longer than about ten years. There are all kinds of exceptions to this, of course, but many more examples that prove the thesis. You just can’t stay in that spotlight forever and continue to churn out hit after hit; the spotlight inevitably moves on.
    2. They ran out of juice. They tapped themselves out. They shot their creative wad. There was nothing more in the tank. How many good songs or records or paintings or novels or poems do artists have in them? Some can produce at a high level for years, others taper off dramatically after some impressive high points.
    3. They got lazy. Strayed from their roots. Became jet setters. Became more interested in and consumed by fame than by music.
    4. They stopped taking drugs, which were their true inspiration all along. Their earthbound selves were simply incapable of creating the same level of achievement as their stoned flights as wingless angels.

    But the posts in this thread suggest another possible reason, a variation on some of the themes I list above, but separate, too:

    The band just wasn’t willing—either due to family matters, or personal antipathies, or just lack of interest—to do the work necessary to make great Stones records.

    Let’s face it, once these guys started writing their own material, they started spending a LOT of time in the studio to get things right. They needed that time, apparently, for their ideas to jell, for basic riffs to become great records. This was certainly true for them from about ’66-’79; they needed to devote the time to make their sketches come alive. They were just that kind of band. In later years, they did not put in the time and instead released those sketches as their finished albums.

    One of these statements is true:

    —The songs on Steel WheelsVoodoo Lounge, Bridges to Babylon, and A Bigger Bang are demonstrably inferior to their classic work and could not have been improved much with more studio time, or

    —The songs on those records contain germs of greatness which with the application of the kind of Stones magic that only seems to happen in the fullness of time might have blossomed into a sort of “classic” status of their own.

    (Of course, it also wouldn’t have hurt if each of those albums had been chopped down to 40 minutes!)

    May 5, 2016 at 8:31 pm #46988
    Breath
    Participant

    Give me a double hit of good ol’ #4, LBA.

    And the saddest and most frustrating part of this is that this problem is SO fixable! Grrrr!

    May 6, 2016 at 9:12 am #47028
    DandelionPowderman
    Participant

    Heaven stems from the PM sessions (thanks, Skippy).

    Well, if that’s a comment to me, I wasn’t claiming anything else. I might have been unclear, but I tried to say that “Heaven” is a typical PM era Jagger ‘slow song’, more like an exercise on a certain feel, sound and groove, than a properly written melodical ballad he made especially during the mid-70’s (and would do again, as the 80’s developed further). But do you buy my over-all account of Pathe Marconi era and of its distinctive traits, Dandie? I know that that era is special for you..

    • Doxa

    Yeah, they sound pretty spot on to me. But I don’t think Heaven is typical of the PM-era, though, with its melodic, dreamy and ethereal vibe. It leads my mind back to Sticky Fingers, actually, when ignoring the keyboard sound etc. 🙂 As I haven’t heard the rehearsal take of Heaven from PM, I can’t tell whether it sounded typically PM-esque at first, but the structure of the tune – and its vibe – is Mick at his melodious and exploring best, imo.

    About the lack of ballads and melodic stuff, I think there are plenty, but many of them are covers, and tend to lean in the country/soul/jazzy direction. Stuff like All About You, Let’s Go Steady and No Use In Crying is just great. My guess is that they brought in some covers to work out the vibe/muse for writing songs in this and that musical direction.

    In addition to the funky tracks and the fast rockers, many mid-tempo tunes are also pretty strong melodically. This one, for instance, could have been really nice with more work.

    Songs like Loving You Is Sweeter Than Ever and others had that potential, too + a vast number of the Keith-tracks.

    I don’t have the time to go into this fully now, hence this post is a bit unstructed and fragmented -sorry 🙂

    And I always liked Still In Love (both the ER and the DW-sessions versions).

    From the DW-sessions:

    The ER-version of Still In Love starts at 1:01:50 here:

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    BBB - Bring Blondie Back

    May 8, 2016 at 12:09 am #47077
    Upgreydd
    Participant

    Thanks for posting the ER sessions version of Still In Love, DP.  Haven’t heard that one in a long time. One of my favorite outtakes. It would have been  such a cool song if they had finished it.  The piano driven one from the DW sessions is nice too.  Great to listen to as you start your day early on Sunday.

    May 10, 2016 at 2:57 pm #47132
    goo
    Participant

    I love all these outtakes…..

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    May 11, 2016 at 4:05 pm #47148
    goo
    Participant

    Where is the beggars banquet deluxe??????

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    May 11, 2016 at 5:31 pm #47152
    Nikkei
    Participant

    Where is the beggars banquet deluxe??????

    Mick is not going to bother deluxing anything when the money goes to Ackbo

    May 11, 2016 at 5:32 pm #47153
    Nikkei
    Participant

    Abcko

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